In Florida I’m calling out FPL the local power company.
You would think in Florida having solar panels is a no brainer, but FPL fought it for years.
FPL successfully lobbied to have insurance companies deny coverage if panels are installed on a roof. You can’t get windstorm insurance with panels unless you paythrought the nose.
FPL successfully lobbied to force homeowners with powerwalls and panels to take out a 1 million dollar insurance policy payable to FPL in case there’s an accident that damages the grid…an accident that has never happened, ever.
FPL then has the gall to advertise solar energy and all the benefits, you can sign up for solar power provided by FPL for a slight increase in your bill to help the environment.
Mother fucking FPL
I’m so glad companies have enough excessive funds to use that money against me.
Capitalism. Anyone who tries not to buy my shit is my enemy.
Wait, solar panels are hard to use? When did they fuck that up?
Misleading name. These are basically all-in-one solar panels. It is much better to separate out inverters since they are scarce and expensive.
Didn’t read article, but can tell headline is BS already
I mean, it makes sense to me that consumers can’t be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off, but I’m not a lineman or some sort of civil engineer or whatever.
But if I were a lawmaker, I’d be on the phone with the Germans, who have 1.2M of these connected, and figuring out if and how they’re doing it safely. But lawmakers seem to be somehow incapable of reaching out to people who know fuck all about anything.
The microinverters stop feeding in if grid goes down. So it’s safe.
How do you know? In a typical solar system, you have to have a permit, which requires an inspector to come out and ensure everything is configured correctly and safely. These don’t require any permits, which is great for making them more affordable and accessible, but there’s also no one coming around to make sure that anyone is doing it safely.
Inverters in the US are all listed to UL1741-SB which dictates that they shall cease to energize their AC outputs if they sense an absence of grid voltage.
Now, one thing people are ignoring is that UL1741-SB allows for islanding protection, and the disablement of it. If an inverter has its settings changed such that islanding protection is OFF, then the inverter will keep sending power to the “grid” because it thinks it’s operating on a microgrid that was previously disconnected from the larger grid via a Microgrid Interconnection Device (MID).
The settings these inverters have are user-settable, which means they need to be checked by a qualified person, either a contractor, engineer, or inspector. These settings must also often be checked by the utility you’re interconnecting to before they allow you to energize, so usually all of these parties have eyes on the inverters’ settings and can stop work before energization until things are corrected.
Ultimately I agree with you. If we don’t want to have to need inspections for every solar installation, especially residential ones and especially where plug-and-play solar modules are used, then inverters need to have their settings pre-configured for the grid code in the factory that then cannot be changed by the user or operator in the field. That would be a way to shoe-in this kind of installation.
Hard setting grid codes into inverters prior to shipping to site might be overly conservative though, especially as utilities change their grid codes over time. You need to have a way to update those settings, which could be using a wireless portal hosted by the inverter OEM with credentials made only available to the OEM. Problem with this is that then you shift the burden of configuration to the manufacturer which already has a ton of other UL standards as well as rules and regulations to follow.
What do y’all think?
I agree with everything you said except shoe-in, because it’s shoo-in.
But you articulated (better than I was going to) the number one issue. Power companies need insurance and their insurance will be affected if ordinance permits basically unchecked generators being plugged into the grid. And before anyone says it, you are not allowed to just plug your generator into your house. Does it happen? Yeah, people have been dumb since day one.
But there are transfer switches that allow for this operation in a safe manner, and the easiest way to deal with this is to have them installed by default in new construction, and to provide incentive for upgrading your panel to include one.
Inverters in the US are all listed to UL1741-SB which dictates that they shall cease to energize their AC outputs if they sense an absence of grid voltage.
No, they are absolutely not. I don’t know where people are getting this idea. Many inverters aren’t even UL listed. There is absolutely no requirement for them to be. If that were the case, off-grid inverters wouldn’t even be allowed to exist. I own several that do not have this capability and are not UL listed.
they need to be checked by a qualified person
Not in the case of Utah’s new “balcony solar” laws. That’s the problem.
which could be using a wireless portal hosted by the inverter OEM with credentials made only available to the OEM
Oh goodie, I’ve always wanted DRM for my inverter.
What do y’all think?
I think it should just require a permit, like every other solar installation. Unless we can provide data to show that it’s not a problem in existing areas where this is common, and we research and follow their regulations.
Many inverters aren’t even UL listed.
Yes but many inspectors and insurance companies won’t want you to install electrical equipment on “real property” or buildings if it isn’t UL as that falls into the scope of AHJs and insurance providers. If there’s something that has the potential to start a fire, you need to have safety certifications so operating the system not only reduces the risk of fire, but also selling the house in the future to a new owner doesn’t come with excess burden on behalf of the next insurer.
If your solar system is off-grid AND off-building, I see no reason that you need to have a UL listed system.
This is of course dependent on local AHJs and utilities, but UL 1741 covers both standalone (off-grid) and grid-interactive (on-grid) inverters. If you’re choosing an inverter manufacturer that makes non-UL listed off-grid inverters, I would probably be suspect of their products’ quality as it’s easier to gain UL listing regardless of how the inverter is used: off-grid or grid-interactive.
That’s the problem.
That is a problem. Off-grid inverters that aren’t certified to UL 1741-SB aren’t required to have anti-islanding protection that cuts the inverters off if there’s an absence of grid voltage. If a “balcony solar” inverter were to NOT cease to energize upon loss of grid and stay islanded, then voltage is introduced to the building’s/community’s shared local distribution system. If work were to be done on that portion of the distribution system or grid where lineman and wireman expect conductors to be de-energized, then you might have injuries as a result. Now, you may be able to say that lineman and wireman should always test for presence of voltage prior to doing work, and as a solar engineer I would absolutely expect folks to do this, but that’s not always the case. People cut corners. And in the event that certain crews cut corners, don’t check for voltage and investigate where the voltage source is, and start touching wires and introducing paths to ground, people can get seriously injured or die.
You may think that because solar panels are current-limited that this fact protects workers in the event of becoming exposed to live voltage, but any combination of voltage and current can kill.
I’ve always wanted DRM for my inverter.
In the context of safety, this is a good thing. Skirting DRM on movies or TVs won’t mean you injure yourself or others or worse. Skirting inverter settings can cause inverters to operate in ways that are unintended, and could hurt people. These things are not the same, and it’s concerning that you can’t see the difference.
Also, having locks on settings means that other bad actors are deterred from changing those settings maliciously, whether intentional or not.
There is not substitute for a qualified person operating and maintaining an electrical system, regardless of voltage.
I think it should just require a permit
Agreed
Yes but many inspectors and insurance companies won’t want you
…why would anyone care what those people want?
if there’s something that has the potential to start a fire, you need to have safety certifications
No you don’t.
If your solar system is off-grid AND off-building, I see no reason that you need to have a UL listed system.
You’re missing the point. Nothing is stopping anyone from installing off-grid inverters (or any inverter at all) in an on-grid system.
I would probably be suspect of their products’ quality
Have you ever looked at “top sellers” on Amazon? Most people do not care about quality, they just buy the cheapest shit possible.
These things are not the same, and it’s concerning that you can’t see the difference.
I see the difference, I just don’t care. It’s concerning that you can’t see the potential for exploitation, both from corporations and governments.
I know it because it’s in the spec necessary for licensing. It shuts off in under 20 ms so you can’t even get shocked by the prongs of the plug if pulled out.
What license? Who is coming to verify your license?
It is a commercial product, connected to the grid via a standard schuko plug, sold in Germany. It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.
It all shouldn’t be so difficult to understand.
It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.
So you can’t buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?
It all shouldn’t be so difficult to understand.
It’s not, which is why I’m not sure why you’re struggling.
So you can’t buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?
Sure you can. Solar panels will be fried by grid voltage more or less immediately if you connect them directly to a wall socket and become useless.
You cannot buy a PV inverter in Germany (entire EU really) that doesn’t automatically shut off if it doesn’t detect a frequency to sync against from it’s AC side, unless it can run off-grid in which case it has to disble the grid connection within the same 20ms.
Hmmm, I wonder how this would affect things in the future where this is widely used.
I.E. if you had both widespread solar usage and some kind of large blackout, would it be hard to get all your solar back online because it’s all in the “waiting for the grid” state? And the grid can’t come back at capacity because all the solar it’s expecting is out?
I assume people smarter than me have this figured out, but just a random thought if anyone knows more.
Not just solar - most grid-scale generators have this problem. “Black start” is the search term you want to look for, and Practical Engineering has a good video on the subject.
Basically, only a relative few grid generators are actually capable of black starts. The rest need the grid to be already functioning before they can tie in and start producing.
Yes, starting up a downed grid is a difficult problem. Recovering from a large scale failure could take weeks. Longer, with blown transformers.
You turn on parts of the grid at a time.
What happens when someone makes an unsafe backfeed into a downed grid and then other nearby inverters detect the current and bring themselves back online? Is there a way to detect if the load is being delivered from the utility vs from incorrectly configured solar or generator installations?
Some others are arguing back and forth about this elsewhere in the thread and I see the reasoning: unpermitted systems could accidentally energize isolated portions of the grid during downtime, which might trick properly installed systems to also come back online, and you have a runaway effect where there is enough current present to allow addition safety systems to be fooled.
There isn’t any data transmission over the wires; there either is current, or there isn’t. Arguing over permitting is moot - either safety systems can handle this scenario already, or they can’t.
All paperwork does is slow the relief of dependence on the utility, which hurts their profits.
The same thing that currently happens when somebody does that with a gas generator? Linepersons get zapped… people get sued… etc…
There isn’t any data transmission over the wires…
That’s very wrong. Not only can you extend Ethernet in your own home using your power outlets, the power companies have been reading meters this way for decades.
Linepersons get zapped… people get sued… etc…
Kinda seems like something you might want to avoid…
Obviously. I was just pointing out that it isn’t an issue unique to solar.
It is unique to “balcony solar”. Typical solar systems require permits and inspections before connecting.
No it isn’t. The same thing happens with the kind of gas generators you can get from your local hardware store all the time.
I had a chat about this with a friend who works for the national grid (UK).
Apparently the problem is keeping the grid balanced and stable. Basically, the grid struggles to react fast, so they plan ahead. Things like large scale solar can provide predictions on output. Home solar can’t.
When clouds pass over an area it can cause slumps and surges in the local grid. The more home solar, the worse it gets. The current grid is designed to work top down, with predictable changes in demand. It needs upgrading to deal with large scale bidirectional flows.
The plug in units are (potentially) even more ropey. If used properly, they are no worse than normal home solar. Unfortunately, being cheaper, there are worries over the microinverters not shutting down. Either due to the manufacturer cheaping out, or turning on an “off grid” mode.
There are also worries about overloading household circuits. Back feeding bypasses the household circuit breakers and RCDs. They could overload wall wiring and cause fires, or stop an RCD tripping, allowing for a person to be shocked.
I don’t know how much this would apply to the American Grid, but I would imagine it would be worse. Your grid is older and larger. You also use 120VAC which makes the current overload issue a lot worse.
You also use 120VAC which makes the current overload issue a lot worse.
Voltage inside of residences is 120v AC, but its 240v thats delivered to each house. I think a bigger difference is that in the USA that 240v AC is single phase where I believe (Germany included) many nations in the EU are 3 phase.
The USA does have 3 phase power for most commercial applications though.
It’s worth noting that this is talking about plug in solar, so would be at standard mains voltage.
1kw would be around 4A in Europe, but 8A in the USA. Also, since resistive losses scale with I^2 that’s 4x the heat dumped in the walls.
At least in the UK, they tend to run 3 phase to a road, but only a single phase goes into a given house. You need to get a special hook up to get 3 phase to a domestic premise, and they don’t like doing it.
It’s worth noting that this is talking about plug in solar, so would be at standard mains voltage.
Thats fair.
At least in the UK, they tend to run 3 phase to a road, but only a single phase goes into a given house. You need to get a special hook up to get 3 phase to a domestic premise, and they don’t like doing it.
TIL about the UK electrical system. Thanks!
I’m at the edge of my knowledge but that sounds like it matches the USA system (for the number of phases).
plug a solar panel into a large battery backup, plug the major appliances into that.
Utility companies don’t need to know shit.
That’s what I have. Basically a small-ish parallel electrical system that runs critical loads like a mini split, refrigerator, water heater, etc. And a small UPS for modem/server.
These can output 1800W, 1100Wh, Starts at CAD$700 then you just pay more for more storage for bigger systems.
Those are neat for camping or if the power goes out for the afternoon. I use mine mostly for my telescope.
That’s a very small system that won’t power much at all. Additionally I don’t recommend these “all in one” systems, as they’re typically more expensive, not as good, nor are they modular or repairable. Those are really if you need a “mobile” system.
Why don’t we just change the revenue model for power companies. I understand they need money to maintain the infrastructure and pay employees. If power generation becomes so cheap that it can’t sustain the company then don’t rely on that for revenue. I’d rather pay a flat rate for the infrastructure and operating costs than a fluctuating generation charge. And public utilities should not be for profit.
Ohio does something like that. We have separate contracts with a heavily regulated grid operator for distributing power, and our choice of generation companies for providing power.
The grid operator does our metering and billing, but forwards our generation charge to the provider we select.
Considering how horribly corrupt PUCO is- part of quite literally the largest modern bribery scandal (possibly the largest in the history) of the US, lets maybe not use Ohio as an example here.
For context for everyone else, this was so bad republicans literally threw a senior republican politician (sitting state representative, former speaker of the house) in jail for a 20 year sentence.
I love a story with a happy ending.
Oh no, everyone else in the republican party got off scott-free, including the current sitting governor, and the laws and funding that were bribed into existence are still around as a result, and the taxpayer money (over 1 billion of it) won’t be repaid.
I think the only exceptions to them getting off scott-free is Larry Householder, who I mentioned is in jail, and Sam Randazzo, the former PUCO chair who committed suicide. And I supposed technically the ex GOP chair Matt Borges, who was convicted, but released almost immediately.
FirstEnergy themselves are being investigated, the sitting US Senator just testified iirc last week on the matter, but the politicians that facilitated everything have otherwise not been charged with anything and there’s no intent to, and the judge seems fairly intent on ensuring no one at FirstEnergy goes to jail as well. She’s been overreaching by trying to squash any journalistic coverage of the court case, to the point of where multiple newspapers/news companies are suing her. She also just straight up dismissed money laundering charges, claiming that the prosecution hadn’t proven that the defendants knew that they payments they made were illegal… despite the prosecution providing the defendants’ own text messages celebrating it, and documents and fucking testimony from FirstEnergy’s own attorney advising them against the payment. On top of that, she dismissed the charges despite the fact that the case is still ongoing and evidence is still being entered into the record!
So yeah, it’s fucked, and it’s likely to resolve with them getting away with it. $60 million in various bribes for over $1 billion in Ohio taxpayer money, propping up power plants that don’t even serve Ohio.
Ya I haven’t seen any media on this, thanks for bringing me into the loop.
If your business is critical for modern human living, it should be non-profit. It should be guided by the best management plan of the time, debated and approved by the majority of shareholders. It should open its books and stay open.
Really, it should be government.
Are you saying that electrical power should only be provided by government entities?
Should you be allowed to plug in a solar panel and provide power back to the grid?
Are you a government entity?
If you think you should be allowed to backfeed your own meter, you are calling for the grid to be operated as some sort of market. A regulated market, sure. But a market nonetheless.
