The way you frame voting is that it’s an important part of engaging with an existing, functionally democratic system. I disagree, I don’t believe we have a functionally democratic system, not even partially.
Then why did you even bother voting? You clearly believe that the system isn’t viable. I don’t think you are naive enough to believe that this system can be changed through simple protest and inaction. What methods would you use to effect the changes you want to see?
I already explained, to signal to the ruling and working classes that socialism is necessary. Ideally, a socialist party would get enough votes to drive up membership.
My position is that we need an entirely new system, a socialist system, and that to get there we need an organized, mass socialist party, mass class consciousness among the working class, and a crisis within the capitalist system that leaves the capitalist class weak. The first two are directly controllable by those of us that work to build up the socialist party and educate our fellow workers, and the last is made inevitable by capitalism itself. I’m arguing that we need to educate, agitate, and organize.
That’s the method. Build up the revolutionary party, and build up the general level of political development of the working class as a whole. Get as many people organized as possible, and create a militant working class ready to sieze power when the capitalist class inevitably weakens.
Your realize how dumb “building the revolutionary party” sounds right? Building a party is an agreement to participate in the party system and in American democracy. You’re still trying to work within a system that by your admission you believe is broken beyond any ability to reprsent the will and needs of the people. So I ask again; Why did you bother to vote, and what methods are you going to use to effect the changes you want to see in society? Because right now, what I’m hearing from you is simply a rationalization of a hypocritical decision to convince others not to participate in changing the system from within, and bemoaning the system while refusing to (by your own admission) do anything that actually pushes the changes you want to see…
No? Political parties are not necessarily attached to the US government. Revolutionary parties may or may not participate in elections, but winning seats is never the purpose if they choose to do so. The point is to get people to join, to advertise the party platform. A revolutionary party is a group of organized and trained cadre, not necessarily a group trying to win seats in the government.
I’m honestly baffled at how you interpreted what I said. By no means am I advocating building up a political party to win seats in the US government, I am advocating building up a revolutionary organization of working class people trained as professional revolutionaries.
Do you think the Communist Party of China was somehow not a political party because they won power through revolution, rather than election? That’s not what makes an organization a party or not.
To repeat: I want to build the revolutionary party, educate the broader working class, and prepare for the moment when the capitalist class is weak and can no longer govern, siezing the moment to help the working class take power. That’s it. No more, and no less than that. Not only do I express that I want this, but I actively work for it.
Do you think the Communist Party of China was somehow not a political party because they won power through revolution, rather than election?
From the Wikipedia page for the CCP.
In 1921, Chen Duxiu and Li Dazhao founded the CCP with the help of the Far Eastern Bureau of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks) and Far Eastern Bureau of the Communist International. Although the CCP aligned with the Kuomintang (KMT) during its initial years, the rise of the KMT’s right-wing under the leadership of Chiang Kai-shek and subsequent massacres of tens of thousands of CCP members resulted in a split and a prolonged civil war between the CCP and KMT.
So no, the CCP was initially setup to participate in the existing system of government and then starting working outside of the system while keeping the name.
I don’t think the CCP is the paragon of benevolent democracy that we should strive for in the US, just my opinion though, interesting that you fell back to them as a defense in a thread about functional democracies.
I’m honestly baffled at how you interpreted what I said.
Let me break it down for you then.
You openly admit to voting and working with the Democracy in the US. By your own statments about trying to make a change, you admit that you see voting as an essential part of pushing the changes you want to see in society. At the same time, you proudly admitting to throwing in with the lot of tankies that are pushing people not to vote, stating that voting is useless and we aren’t in a functional democracy. That gap between what you believe/do, and what you are telling other people to believe/do is called hypocrisy.
Per Merriam Webster : Hypocrisy is the behavior of claiming to have moral standards, beliefs, or virtues that one does not actually possess, or acting in direct contradiction to one’s stated words.
You dress up this attempt to sandbag an election and errode the foundation of democracy, voting, with some BS about the Black Panthers and Marxism, but you don’t actually believe any of it, you just want people to not vote, period. You want people to stop advocation for themselves, or make decisions about how they are governed…
The CPC allied militarily with the KMT against imperialist Japan. Absolutely nothing you cited indicates that the CPC at any point intended on working within the existing system. This is basic history. The CPC is a democratic organization set up along the lines of socialist democracy, but that’s a conversation for another day, the point is that they never at any point intended on winning power within the existing system. From the very outset, they declared it necessary to overthrow the bourgeoisie through revolution.
I also never once said I see voting as essential. I see it as potentially useful if a socialist candidate is running, but am under no illusions that they will ever win, nor am I under any illusions that they would even be able to do anything if they won. There is absolutely no gap between what I believe and what I do.
Again, I’ll restate, so that hopefully it will finally sink-in:
I want to build the revolutionary party, educate the broader working class, and prepare for the moment when the capitalist class is weak and can no longer govern, siezing the moment to help the working class take power. That’s it. No more, and no less than that. Not only do I express that I want this, but I actively work for it.
At no point is voting ever necessary for this process. The extent to which voting is useful is the extent to which it can serve as advertisement for people to join the revolutionary party, not for the revolutionary party to gain power electorally. Whether people vote for the revolutionary party or not has little to no impact on the ability for the revolutionary party to take power in the course of revolution.
Do you genuinely not understand this, or are you just trolling at this point? I’m being genuine here. You’re so confidently incorrect that it’s concerning.
And to hold up my end, yes, I voted third party in 2024.
I’ll admit that “essential” was part of my paraphrasing. Regardless, you voted, you saw a benefit in voting, you saw it worth your time to register and show up (or mail in) to vote. You said “I already explained, to signal to the ruling and working classes that socialism is necessary. Ideally, a socialist party would get enough votes to drive up membership.”
Why would you throw in with the tankie scumfucks that are actively trying to suppress people from voting to signal membership and increase visibility in the same way you did?
For all intents and purposes, I belong to the “tankie” group. I believe in the actuality and necessity of revolution, and I support existing socialist states. Those that argue against voting in any capacity as it legitimizes the system, vs. those like myself that see it as occasionally tactically useful in advertising parties, disagree on immediate tactics, not long-term strategy. We both agree that revolution is necessary, and that the US is not a democratic country where voting can get us what we need and want.
I am not being hypocritical in any capacity, here. I do not believe that reformism is a viable approach. I believe that revolution is necessary. The minor distinctions on how I view participation in bourgeois elections is overshadowed by my emphatic agreement that in any case, the Democrats and Republicans are both enemies of the working class that cannot be worked with, as they both serve billionaires and billionaires alone. We live in an imperialist country, we cannot ally with them against foreign imperialists the way those fighting anti-colonial struggles can (temporarily).
I am dedicated to building socialism, and this means I am dedicated to helping the people take power for the people. I encourage you to take up similar dedication to our fellow workers.
For all intents and purposes, I belong to the “tankie” group.
If I were you, I would do my best to distance myself from that kind of association.
From the Wikipedia page for tankie.
Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support or defend acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereof.
Being pro communist in the US, or Socialist or Anarchist is not the same as being a Tankie. Tankie is not a shorthand for “political stance further left than a progressive democract.” It specifically refers to knuckle-dragging mouthpieces that spout that “western democracy has failed” while conveniently having a non-stance on how to actually do something about it. It’s not an ideology or a group that will lead to reform, it is mere a cabal of internet trolls trying to sandbag anything that has to do with the actual process of democracy.
The fact that you can string together more than 3 words and you’ve been around here for more than a few months really leads me to believe that you should put your efforts elsewhere rather than throw in with tankies.
and that to get there we need an organized, mass socialist party, mass class consciousness among the working class
How’s that going?
Have you considered that, especially in a federal election such as for the presidency, the most intelligent option is to vote for the lesser of the two evils guaranteed to win while working toward your high in the sky objectives of a mass socialist party and class consciousness? Or do your fee fees take over the logic center of your brain?
Of course I’ve considered that before, it’s also wrong. Perpetuating support for genocidal imperialist parties by trapping people into electoralism dissuades people from actually getting organized. For example, I’d be shocked if it turned out you were a member of a revolutionary socialist party, considering how much stress you put on people backing the genocidal imperialist Democrats. If you vote Democrat but you actually do organize, then I have no qualms with that, but people that fixate on voting as their primary means of engaging politically rarely actually organize.
I know you think I’m endlessly annoying, but at the end of the day I do believe you have the capacity to change, to grow, and to become a socialist too. You’re even likely to be sympathetic to socialism right now, meaning we just disagree on the strategy and tactics necessary to get there. Why not meet me in the middle and vote Dem while also joining a socialist org as a periphery member? Both Freedom Road Socialist Organization and the Party for Socialism and Liberation have two tiers of membership, periphery membership which is low commitment in time and money, and cadre membership, which requires significant time and money. Why not start there?
Then why did you even bother voting? You clearly believe that the system isn’t viable. I don’t think you are naive enough to believe that this system can be changed through simple protest and inaction. What methods would you use to effect the changes you want to see?
I already explained, to signal to the ruling and working classes that socialism is necessary. Ideally, a socialist party would get enough votes to drive up membership.
My position is that we need an entirely new system, a socialist system, and that to get there we need an organized, mass socialist party, mass class consciousness among the working class, and a crisis within the capitalist system that leaves the capitalist class weak. The first two are directly controllable by those of us that work to build up the socialist party and educate our fellow workers, and the last is made inevitable by capitalism itself. I’m arguing that we need to educate, agitate, and organize.
That’s the method. Build up the revolutionary party, and build up the general level of political development of the working class as a whole. Get as many people organized as possible, and create a militant working class ready to sieze power when the capitalist class inevitably weakens.
Your realize how dumb “building the revolutionary party” sounds right? Building a party is an agreement to participate in the party system and in American democracy. You’re still trying to work within a system that by your admission you believe is broken beyond any ability to reprsent the will and needs of the people. So I ask again; Why did you bother to vote, and what methods are you going to use to effect the changes you want to see in society? Because right now, what I’m hearing from you is simply a rationalization of a hypocritical decision to convince others not to participate in changing the system from within, and bemoaning the system while refusing to (by your own admission) do anything that actually pushes the changes you want to see…
…And that is some tankie bullshit.
No? Political parties are not necessarily attached to the US government. Revolutionary parties may or may not participate in elections, but winning seats is never the purpose if they choose to do so. The point is to get people to join, to advertise the party platform. A revolutionary party is a group of organized and trained cadre, not necessarily a group trying to win seats in the government.
I’m honestly baffled at how you interpreted what I said. By no means am I advocating building up a political party to win seats in the US government, I am advocating building up a revolutionary organization of working class people trained as professional revolutionaries.
Do you think the Communist Party of China was somehow not a political party because they won power through revolution, rather than election? That’s not what makes an organization a party or not.
To repeat: I want to build the revolutionary party, educate the broader working class, and prepare for the moment when the capitalist class is weak and can no longer govern, siezing the moment to help the working class take power. That’s it. No more, and no less than that. Not only do I express that I want this, but I actively work for it.
From the Wikipedia page for the CCP.
So no, the CCP was initially setup to participate in the existing system of government and then starting working outside of the system while keeping the name.
I don’t think the CCP is the paragon of benevolent democracy that we should strive for in the US, just my opinion though, interesting that you fell back to them as a defense in a thread about functional democracies.
Let me break it down for you then.
You openly admit to voting and working with the Democracy in the US. By your own statments about trying to make a change, you admit that you see voting as an essential part of pushing the changes you want to see in society. At the same time, you proudly admitting to throwing in with the lot of tankies that are pushing people not to vote, stating that voting is useless and we aren’t in a functional democracy. That gap between what you believe/do, and what you are telling other people to believe/do is called hypocrisy.
Per Merriam Webster : Hypocrisy is the behavior of claiming to have moral standards, beliefs, or virtues that one does not actually possess, or acting in direct contradiction to one’s stated words.
You dress up this attempt to sandbag an election and errode the foundation of democracy, voting, with some BS about the Black Panthers and Marxism, but you don’t actually believe any of it, you just want people to not vote, period. You want people to stop advocation for themselves, or make decisions about how they are governed…
…And that is some tankie bullshit.
The CPC allied militarily with the KMT against imperialist Japan. Absolutely nothing you cited indicates that the CPC at any point intended on working within the existing system. This is basic history. The CPC is a democratic organization set up along the lines of socialist democracy, but that’s a conversation for another day, the point is that they never at any point intended on winning power within the existing system. From the very outset, they declared it necessary to overthrow the bourgeoisie through revolution.
I also never once said I see voting as essential. I see it as potentially useful if a socialist candidate is running, but am under no illusions that they will ever win, nor am I under any illusions that they would even be able to do anything if they won. There is absolutely no gap between what I believe and what I do.
Again, I’ll restate, so that hopefully it will finally sink-in:
I want to build the revolutionary party, educate the broader working class, and prepare for the moment when the capitalist class is weak and can no longer govern, siezing the moment to help the working class take power. That’s it. No more, and no less than that. Not only do I express that I want this, but I actively work for it.
At no point is voting ever necessary for this process. The extent to which voting is useful is the extent to which it can serve as advertisement for people to join the revolutionary party, not for the revolutionary party to gain power electorally. Whether people vote for the revolutionary party or not has little to no impact on the ability for the revolutionary party to take power in the course of revolution.
Do you genuinely not understand this, or are you just trolling at this point? I’m being genuine here. You’re so confidently incorrect that it’s concerning.
I’ll admit that “essential” was part of my paraphrasing. Regardless, you voted, you saw a benefit in voting, you saw it worth your time to register and show up (or mail in) to vote. You said “I already explained, to signal to the ruling and working classes that socialism is necessary. Ideally, a socialist party would get enough votes to drive up membership.”
Why would you throw in with the tankie scumfucks that are actively trying to suppress people from voting to signal membership and increase visibility in the same way you did?
…That’s some tankie bullshit right there.
For all intents and purposes, I belong to the “tankie” group. I believe in the actuality and necessity of revolution, and I support existing socialist states. Those that argue against voting in any capacity as it legitimizes the system, vs. those like myself that see it as occasionally tactically useful in advertising parties, disagree on immediate tactics, not long-term strategy. We both agree that revolution is necessary, and that the US is not a democratic country where voting can get us what we need and want.
I am not being hypocritical in any capacity, here. I do not believe that reformism is a viable approach. I believe that revolution is necessary. The minor distinctions on how I view participation in bourgeois elections is overshadowed by my emphatic agreement that in any case, the Democrats and Republicans are both enemies of the working class that cannot be worked with, as they both serve billionaires and billionaires alone. We live in an imperialist country, we cannot ally with them against foreign imperialists the way those fighting anti-colonial struggles can (temporarily).
I am dedicated to building socialism, and this means I am dedicated to helping the people take power for the people. I encourage you to take up similar dedication to our fellow workers.
If I were you, I would do my best to distance myself from that kind of association.
From the Wikipedia page for tankie.
Being pro communist in the US, or Socialist or Anarchist is not the same as being a Tankie. Tankie is not a shorthand for “political stance further left than a progressive democract.” It specifically refers to knuckle-dragging mouthpieces that spout that “western democracy has failed” while conveniently having a non-stance on how to actually do something about it. It’s not an ideology or a group that will lead to reform, it is mere a cabal of internet trolls trying to sandbag anything that has to do with the actual process of democracy.
The fact that you can string together more than 3 words and you’ve been around here for more than a few months really leads me to believe that you should put your efforts elsewhere rather than throw in with tankies.
How’s that going?
Have you considered that, especially in a federal election such as for the presidency, the most intelligent option is to vote for the lesser of the two evils guaranteed to win while working toward your high in the sky objectives of a mass socialist party and class consciousness? Or do your fee fees take over the logic center of your brain?
Of course I’ve considered that before, it’s also wrong. Perpetuating support for genocidal imperialist parties by trapping people into electoralism dissuades people from actually getting organized. For example, I’d be shocked if it turned out you were a member of a revolutionary socialist party, considering how much stress you put on people backing the genocidal imperialist Democrats. If you vote Democrat but you actually do organize, then I have no qualms with that, but people that fixate on voting as their primary means of engaging politically rarely actually organize.
I know you think I’m endlessly annoying, but at the end of the day I do believe you have the capacity to change, to grow, and to become a socialist too. You’re even likely to be sympathetic to socialism right now, meaning we just disagree on the strategy and tactics necessary to get there. Why not meet me in the middle and vote Dem while also joining a socialist org as a periphery member? Both Freedom Road Socialist Organization and the Party for Socialism and Liberation have two tiers of membership, periphery membership which is low commitment in time and money, and cadre membership, which requires significant time and money. Why not start there?