All Jews must kill Zionism within Judaism

I also reject the framing of “Israel makes Jews unsafe/increases antisemitism” because: (1) we’re the oppressors in the context of Israel, not the victims; (2) this framing abdicates Jewish responsibility because ‘Israel’ is not an amorphous self-animating thing that merely hovers over us, it is a colony that we as Jews actively build and sustain daily through concerted generational effort; (3) that’s not “antisemitism” it’s a reaction to Jewish-led genocide which all our institutions support; (4) you’re conceding to the propaganda that there is a “rise in antisemitism” when Jews currently do not face systemic oppression for being Jewish and the “antisemitic incidents” data is tracked such that every anti-zionist protest sign is clocked as a separate “antisemitic incident” by the ADL so; (5) enough with the Jewish victimhood, “Jewish safety” and “antisemitism” talk, it’s just a distraction from Jewish-perpetrated genocide of Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims.

    • orc girly@lemmy.ml
      10·
      7 days ago

      I think that there is a viable path to a two state solution given sufficient third party intervention. I think that more bloodshed is, while sometimes necessary, not the answer to the current conflict from either side. And I think that there are no good guys in any of this.

      That’s where you’re wrong. You’re still ignoring that one group of people is indigenous and has endured almost a century of genocide and the other group is settlers. The answer isn’t a two state solution, it’s a single state that is secular and doesn’t enshrine Jewish supremacy. Jews can still be welcome and be regular citizens, as long as they give back the stolen houses and ideally pay reparations.

      • testfactor@lemmy.world
        17·
        7 days ago

        I’m not ignoring it. I don’t believe that the entire US should be dismantled and returned to the Native Americans, despite them being indigenous and suffering centuries of genocide either. History is messy and not every vase can be repaired.

        A secular single state could be an ideal I could get behind certainly. I’m fine with that as an outcome. But to be clear, that’s not what either side wants or is fighting for.

        But to clarify, you’re fine with the state of Israel continuing to exist and even fully annexing the West Bank and Gaza, so long as they secularize their government, stop the genocide, and allow equal representation to Palestinians? Perhaps some reparations thrown in for good measure? If so, I think we just completely agree.

        • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
          7·
          7 days ago

          They already functionally have annexed West Bank and Gaza; people just don’t call it that because then they’d have to admit that Isreal is an apartheid state. A two state solution would require forcedly relocating 10% of the Israeli population who are squatting in West Bank, which Isreal would never allow.

            • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
              9·
              7 days ago

              I don’t think anyone, even the staunchest Zionist apologist, denies that Gaza and the West Bank are functionally annexed.

              Well you don’t have to think it, but Zionists and their allies deny it pretty consistently, regardless of what you think. It’s literally the liberal Zionist argument for why Isreal isn’t apartheid.

              They might argue that it was an unavoidable inevitably after Egypt and Jordan refused to claim those territories when they were offered.

              That never happened. Sorry, I should have realised you were a Zionist here in bad faith.

              Unclaimed and unmoderated zones in the Middle East tend to quickly become hard to ignore

              They are not “unclaimed” you fucking 18th century colonialist. They are claimed by the people living there.

              Thaf said, and to be perfectly clear, I’m not saying that they had to form an apartheid state.

              Doesn’t really matter what you say, because that’s what they did.

              No reasonable person questions that.

              Yes, but liberal Zionists aren’t reasonable

              I don’t think that I agree a two state solution would require forced relocation of settlers though

              Doesn’t really matter if you agree. It would require that.

              it wouldn’t require Israel to expell all Palestinians from Israel. Minority populations should still be allowed to exist.

              The difference is that West Bank Settlers are an insane fundamantalist militia that have been deliberately armed and organized to resist Palestinian statehood. How in the world are you expecting a Palestinian state to function with hundreds of thousands of armed separatists inside its borders?

                • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
                  6·
                  6 days ago

                  I’ve not personally seen or heard a large contingent arguing otherwise. I’m sure you can find people who would argue otherwise, but you can find people who would argue the world is flat. Determining what percentage of people believe that position seems hard, but purely anecdotally I don’t think it’s many.

                  Lol. Well now I know you’re being dishonest.

                  Further research doesn’t adequately support the stance.

                  Maybe you should have done that research before repeating falsehoods?

                  I meant “unclaimed” in the sense of not having a legitimized government. I realize this descends into a debate about the legitimacy of Hamas or the PLO, and to what degree those were successfully operating as a cohesive state, and to what degree it was their fault if they weren’t. I’ll address this more in a later point.

                  “Obviously the savages can’t be allowed to govern themselves!”

                  You really are just an old school colonialist.

                  My gut is that

                  Don’t care.

                  but your last point just sounds like a Zionist talking point flipped around. How do you expect a state to exist when it has thousands of armed militants operating within its borders?

                  Ok, just keep demonstrateing that you’re talking in obvious bad faith I suppose.

                  It’s not an easy problem for anybody, which is why it hasn’t been solved anytime in the past century.

                  No. That’s not why it hasn’t been solved, and you know it.

                  It’s worth noting that neither of the first two options can work at all with the only two players at the table being Israel and Palestine.

                  Yeah, but one can work without a massive military campaign to remove hundreds of thousands of armed squatter extremists.

                  • testfactor@lemmy.world
                    13·
                    6 days ago

                    Tough to follow the thread when my old comments keep getting removed, lol.

                    You keep accusing me of dishonesty, which I’m genuinely not being, but I don’t think I’m going to change your opinion of me.

                    You did point out I was incorrect on something and I verified it and affirmed that you were correct. I’m not sure what else you want from me there.

                    However, if we’re accusing each other of arguing in bad faith, I think it’s pretty clear I wasn’t saying, “the savages can’t govern themselves.” We don’t need to resort to flagrant misrepresentation. I think I’ve attempted to approach your position charitably and engage with it in a respectful manner.

                    I did struggle to figure out what exactly it is you’re arguing for in the last block of quotes. Do you think that reconciliation between Israel and Palestine is actually an easy problem that can be achieved without outside influence? Looking back I don’t know that you’ve established what you think should be done to resolve all this.