Too many tankies. All of them saying people shouldn’t vote, while offering no solution and celebrating Russia as a good country.

  • aldhissla@piefed.worldEnglish
    913·
    15 days ago

    Now try substituting your references to tankies with nazis. Would you talk coffee with someone showing as jewgasser88@hitlerfan.nazi? Would you argue against defederating from them using the same arguments?

    • t3rmit3@beehaw.org
      82·
      15 days ago

      No, and my other comment below addressed this, so I’ll copy the relevant portions:

      When you’re talking about toxicity, there are a couple different areas that manifests in written content. One is toxic behavior, i.e. how you convey your ideas, and another is what you say, i.e. the ideas themselves.

      Moderating out toxic behavior is much easier, in that someone being actively rude or advocating direct harm or prejudice is often fairly cut-and-dry. Moderating out toxic beliefs is much harder, because that requires setting a baseline of what constitute a toxic belief in the first place (and even beyond that, an unacceptable to express toxic belief).

      Nazism and other rightwing “belief systems” have harming others at the core of their structures. As misguided as it is, Marxist-Leninism doesn’t. I think that’s at least a clear enough line to draw in my mind for why they merit different treatment.

      Your hypothetical kind of proves my point, even, because what hypothetical username would be the tankie equivalent of

      CW

      “jewgasser”

      ?

      One of the most annoying parts of dealing with tankies is their refusal to admit any of the USSR’s crimes, which is the dead opposite of Nazis who revel in the crimes of Hitler. One ideology (tankies/ MLs) considers the actions wrong, so they pretend they didn’t happen. The other ideology considers the actions right, so they flaunt them.

      • A_be_seedy@beehaw.orgOP
        3·
        15 days ago

        Here’s a commonly cited wiki site on Lemmy.ml and its about page:

        https://web.archive.org/web/20220805151259/https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/ProleWiki:Principles

        The moderation and userbase celebrates Putin due to his defiance of NATO. Of course, theyre not consistent in their beliefs, because if they felt NATO was such a threat, then they would be celebrating Trump for doing more to hurt NATO than any other individual in NATO’s history.

        • t3rmit3@beehaw.org
          52·
          15 days ago

          That did not address my question. I don’t like Putin; he is attacking Ukraine. I don’t like Biden; he supplied Israel’s genocide of Palestinians. Neither of them are intrinsic to their respective ideologies.

          Of course, theyre not consistent in their beliefs, because if they felt NATO was such a threat, then they would be celebrating Trump for doing more to hurt NATO than any other individual in NATO’s history.

          This is a silly argument. Trump is not hurting NATO because he believes it’s a Western Imperialism power projection tool like they do, he’s hurting it because it did not kowtow to his demands. He is a capitalist authoritarian, and they’re anti-capitalist.

          • A_be_seedy@beehaw.orgOP
            1·
            15 days ago

            It absolutely didn’t answer your question, it was a response to the wrong comment.

            If NATO kowtowed to his demands it would have also been significantly weakened.

            • t3rmit3@beehaw.org
              11·
              15 days ago

              If NATO kowtowed to his demands it would have also been significantly weakened.

              I’m not quite sure what this is responding to either; my point was that disliking NATO because you view it as a capitalist project, and also disliking an authoritarian capitalist who wants to control it, are consistent beliefs.

      • aldhissla@piefed.worldEnglish
        35·
        15 days ago

        You’re dancing around and evading the core issue, even denying it. Your last two sentences can be considered a total lie. Tankies celebrate the holodomor, Mao’s cultural revolution, Pol Pot’s purges, etc. Pretending they don’t puts you in the same category of tankie as I would consider a mainstream “alt-righter” a nazi. Pretending you’re not monsters in public.

        And here’s a tankie equivalent to jewgasser, just so your pretension of ignorance doesn’t spread: ukrainianstarver (I’m not that creative, but don’t let that diminish the disdain I have for your cognitive acrobatics).

        Also, you’re already moving the goalposts by translating tankie into “marxist-leninist”. Just like your alt-right counterparts use the word “patriot”.

        Thanks for your post, I think it’s a great argument for defederation. I for one will not pretend I’m ok with celebrations of murder, even if those celebrations are being denied with someone pretending to be as decent as you.

        • t3rmit3@beehaw.org
          22·
          14 days ago

          You’re dancing around and evading the core issue, even denying it. Your last two sentences can be considered a total lie. Tankies celebrate the holodomor, Mao’s cultural revolution, Pol Pot’s purges, etc. Pretending they don’t puts you in the same category of tankie as I would consider a mainstream “alt-righter” a nazi. Pretending you’re not monsters in public.

          Cool story. That’s not my experience dealing with tankies. I’ve literally never once seen them “celebrate” the Holodomor. If in your mind anyone whose experience differs from yours is just a liar, I don’t think you’re going to have a very successful time in convincing people to see things your way.

          And here’s a tankie equivalent to jewgasser, just so your pretension of ignorance doesn’t spread: ukrainianstarver

          Which, to my point, I’ve never seen a tankie call themselves (or anything like it).

          Also, you’re already moving the goalposts by translating tankie into “marxist-leninist”. Just like your alt-right counterparts use the word “patriot”.

          "Tankie’ is literally a pejorative for (mostly online) Marxist-Leninists. They don’t call themselves tankies. Are you actually unaware of that? In what way was the goalpost moved?

          Thanks for your post, I think it’s a great argument for defederation.

          Well, we did, so you’re good to go!

          I for one will not pretend I’m ok with celebrations of murder, even if those celebrations are being denied with someone pretending to be as decent as you.

          And if I’d ever seen them “celebrating murder”, I’d agree with you. But I haven’t. I’ve seen them support the Cultural Revolution, sure, but they will dispute the deaths by famine, the executions of protesters, etc etc. They pretend that it was a nearly-bloodless social restructuring via mostly education and directed labor. Clearly your experience is different, and I don’t expect you to acquiesce to my experience over your own, but by the same token I’m not going to just take your word sight-unseen for something when you’re asking me to take action against someone based on it (but, as noted, the mods have, so luckily for you I don’t need to agree with you).

          If the simple fact that my experience differs from yours makes you see me as malicious or “pretending” at decency, frankly I think that is very sad, and says more about you than it does about me.