Too many tankies. All of them saying people shouldn’t vote, while offering no solution and celebrating Russia as a good country.
We had a short discussion about this on discord and were all in agreement to defederate from lemmy.ml. In general if there are other requests for defederation, please feel free to surface them by creating threads like this or talking about it on discord.
Well, hellooooo beehaw!
Ayy you guys are the best! Was this the right beehaw community or would one have been a better fit
Yep, this is the correct community!
Dang dog that’s dope as fuck
I wish .world had this kind of balls.
Thank you for this.
It’s my personal opinion that a fair society has tolerated the intolerant for too long. This is the right move.
FYI you can block instances on Lemmy yourself if you don’t want to see anything from them anymore. This isn’t the same as defederating of course, but could be a solution for now.
Blocking .ml will prevent you from posts made on there instance, you will still see comments from the users.
And they will still brigade you if one calls for backup.
This seems like a horrible oversight.
I actually like it better this way. In my experience the core tankies stay mostly to themselves, most .ml users i see in the wild (non-triad coms) are either better behaved or only joined .ml because of its flagship status, rather than ideological reasons.
Then again, i wouldnt say the same about other instances i blocked, so maybe a two-tiered block system: “coms only” and “coms plus users”
It doesn’t stop the seepage of their dipshits into other instances though.
Look, I dislike tankies as much as the next anarchist, but I don’t know if lemmy.ml is bad enough to need defederation from. Once you learn their shtick, it’s easy to ignore their more dogmatic users. Part of “bee-ing nice” cannot just mean “build smaller and smaller fences until no one you think isn’t nice can be seen anymore”. We also have our own propaganda to deal with here, including the “vote blue no matter who” brigade that disappear the moment elections are over. You can block them yourself if you don’t want to see their posts, but my vote for defed’ing would be ‘no’.
Now try substituting your references to tankies with nazis. Would you talk coffee with someone showing as jewgasser88@hitlerfan.nazi? Would you argue against defederating from them using the same arguments?
No, and my other comment below addressed this, so I’ll copy the relevant portions:
When you’re talking about toxicity, there are a couple different areas that manifests in written content. One is toxic behavior, i.e. how you convey your ideas, and another is what you say, i.e. the ideas themselves.
Moderating out toxic behavior is much easier, in that someone being actively rude or advocating direct harm or prejudice is often fairly cut-and-dry. Moderating out toxic beliefs is much harder, because that requires setting a baseline of what constitute a toxic belief in the first place (and even beyond that, an unacceptable to express toxic belief).
Nazism and other rightwing “belief systems” have harming others at the core of their structures. As misguided as it is, Marxist-Leninism doesn’t. I think that’s at least a clear enough line to draw in my mind for why they merit different treatment.
Your hypothetical kind of proves my point, even, because what hypothetical username would be the tankie equivalent of
CW
“jewgasser”
?
One of the most annoying parts of dealing with tankies is their refusal to admit any of the USSR’s crimes, which is the dead opposite of Nazis who revel in the crimes of Hitler. One ideology (tankies/ MLs) considers the actions wrong, so they pretend they didn’t happen. The other ideology considers the actions right, so they flaunt them.
Here’s a commonly cited wiki site on Lemmy.ml and its about page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220805151259/https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/ProleWiki:Principles
The moderation and userbase celebrates Putin due to his defiance of NATO. Of course, theyre not consistent in their beliefs, because if they felt NATO was such a threat, then they would be celebrating Trump for doing more to hurt NATO than any other individual in NATO’s history.
That did not address my question. I don’t like Putin; he is attacking Ukraine. I don’t like Biden; he supplied Israel’s genocide of Palestinians. Neither of them are intrinsic to their respective ideologies.
Of course, theyre not consistent in their beliefs, because if they felt NATO was such a threat, then they would be celebrating Trump for doing more to hurt NATO than any other individual in NATO’s history.
This is a silly argument. Trump is not hurting NATO because he believes it’s a Western Imperialism power projection tool like they do, he’s hurting it because it did not kowtow to his demands. He is a capitalist authoritarian, and they’re anti-capitalist.
It absolutely didn’t answer your question, it was a response to the wrong comment.
If NATO kowtowed to his demands it would have also been significantly weakened.
If NATO kowtowed to his demands it would have also been significantly weakened.
I’m not quite sure what this is responding to either; my point was that disliking NATO because you view it as a capitalist project, and also disliking an authoritarian capitalist who wants to control it, are consistent beliefs.
You’re dancing around and evading the core issue, even denying it. Your last two sentences can be considered a total lie. Tankies celebrate the holodomor, Mao’s cultural revolution, Pol Pot’s purges, etc. Pretending they don’t puts you in the same category of tankie as I would consider a mainstream “alt-righter” a nazi. Pretending you’re not monsters in public.
And here’s a tankie equivalent to jewgasser, just so your pretension of ignorance doesn’t spread: ukrainianstarver (I’m not that creative, but don’t let that diminish the disdain I have for your cognitive acrobatics).
Also, you’re already moving the goalposts by translating tankie into “marxist-leninist”. Just like your alt-right counterparts use the word “patriot”.
Thanks for your post, I think it’s a great argument for defederation. I for one will not pretend I’m ok with celebrations of murder, even if those celebrations are being denied with someone pretending to be as decent as you.
You’re dancing around and evading the core issue, even denying it. Your last two sentences can be considered a total lie. Tankies celebrate the holodomor, Mao’s cultural revolution, Pol Pot’s purges, etc. Pretending they don’t puts you in the same category of tankie as I would consider a mainstream “alt-righter” a nazi. Pretending you’re not monsters in public.
Cool story. That’s not my experience dealing with tankies. I’ve literally never once seen them “celebrate” the Holodomor. If in your mind anyone whose experience differs from yours is just a liar, I don’t think you’re going to have a very successful time in convincing people to see things your way.
And here’s a tankie equivalent to jewgasser, just so your pretension of ignorance doesn’t spread: ukrainianstarver
Which, to my point, I’ve never seen a tankie call themselves (or anything like it).
Also, you’re already moving the goalposts by translating tankie into “marxist-leninist”. Just like your alt-right counterparts use the word “patriot”.
"Tankie’ is literally a pejorative for (mostly online) Marxist-Leninists. They don’t call themselves tankies. Are you actually unaware of that? In what way was the goalpost moved?
Thanks for your post, I think it’s a great argument for defederation.
Well, we did, so you’re good to go!
I for one will not pretend I’m ok with celebrations of murder, even if those celebrations are being denied with someone pretending to be as decent as you.
And if I’d ever seen them “celebrating murder”, I’d agree with you. But I haven’t. I’ve seen them support the Cultural Revolution, sure, but they will dispute the deaths by famine, the executions of protesters, etc etc. They pretend that it was a nearly-bloodless social restructuring via mostly education and directed labor. Clearly your experience is different, and I don’t expect you to acquiesce to my experience over your own, but by the same token I’m not going to just take your word sight-unseen for something when you’re asking me to take action against someone based on it (but, as noted, the mods have, so luckily for you I don’t need to agree with you).
If the simple fact that my experience differs from yours makes you see me as malicious or “pretending” at decency, frankly I think that is very sad, and says more about you than it does about me.
Is there a list of instances that have defederated from the top 3 tankie hubs? It irks me to share any space with people not one iota better than nazis.
Ah yes, racial purity politics and worker control of the means of production are equally bad.
Sadly, it seems few of us care about the distinction.
Ignorant me:
What’s a tankie, slang for pro Russian propaganda bot?- How can I filter out these .ml fools?-
I’m old. My questions make me feel old.
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For instance, they often posit the Holodomor famine and genocide was justified.
I think this is an unfair representation of their views. They think that there was a famine that was exasperated by Kulaks that were mad their farms were being collectivized, and that there was no intent on the USSR side to cause a famine, pointing to aid that was sent to the region or a letter from Stalin(?) being taken aback that the local admin hadn’t been communicating this earlier and demanded that large efforts to alleviate the (impending?) famine go into place immediately
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Anarchists are far-left but don’t curve back around to the right. Horseshoe theory only makes sense if you’re locked into state power as the medium for change.
I would go so far as to say horseshoe theory only works if you look at very specific groups and assume “left Vs right wing” is an actual linear thing instead of a very stupid oversimplification (that is nevertheless a useful shorthand a lot of the time)
Most would probably describe me as very left wing but no version of my beliefs could be taken to an extreme and end up as tankie beliefs.
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Thanks for the in depth answer. I got it now.
Depends on who is calling you a tankie. If its a .world user then its anyone to the left of Ronald Regan politically.
Thanks for asking! I didn’t know fully but had ideas from context in other posts, but you’ve spurred really great conversation answering!
Lemmy.cafe is defederated from all three, I believe.
Though as you are on a piefed instance, I believe you can fully block an instance and its user’s comments, unlike on Lemmy where a user blocking an instance still let’s comments from that instance through.
Thanks for the info, I’ll definitely look into it. I’m using Boost and have blocked (and now muted) them, but I still keep seeing their comments.
What are the 3 tankie hubs?
lemmy.ml, lemmygrad and hexbear
I thought the whole point of beehaw was y’all don’t federate with anyone. That’s why I stopped using it.
I don’t mean this is a rude way at all, but it looks like you have a username from a different instance and you’re commenting on this post? We de-federated from lemmygrad and I think Hexbear specifically, and then a few of the larger instances that had open signups because we were getting flooded with spam and users who were ignoring our rules, but we’re still federated with plenty of instances.
Pretty silly that an instance whose goal is to minimize toxicity still federates with one of the most toxic instances.
When you’re talking about toxicity, there are a couple different areas that manifests in written content. One is toxic behavior, i.e. how you convey your ideas, and another is what you say, i.e. the ideas themselves.
Moderating out toxic behavior is much easier, in that someone being actively rude or advocating direct harm or prejudice is often fairly cut-and-dry. Moderating out toxic beliefs is much harder, because that requires setting a baseline of what constitute a toxic belief in the first place (and even beyond that, an unacceptable to express toxic belief).
To me, neoliberalism is a toxic belief system that is either too feckless to oppose rightwing authoritarianism, or largely complicit in the desired outcomes without wanting to admit it. But I don’t want every neoliberal “centrist” banned from Beehaw, I want to (when politics does come up), actually point out the issues with their beliefs. Same for tankies; I have (as you can check my comments to see) had a lot of fun explaining how Lenin bastardized Marxism and how they’re just Statists who don’t like the name.
Nazism and other rightwing “belief systems” have harming others at the core of their structures. As misguided as it is, Marxist-Leninism doesn’t. I think that’s at least a clear enough line to draw in my mind for why they merit different treatment.
Nazism and other rightwing “belief systems” have harming others at the core of their structures. As misguided as it is, Marxist-Leninism doesn’t. I think that’s at least a clear enough line to draw in my mind for why they merit different treatment.
Nazism and Tankies have echo chamber tendancies, bot infiltration tendencies, brigading, and most importantly are belief systems that are based on the destruction of society. Fascism is detrimental to society, and giving fascists a voice leads to the spread of fascism.
Lemmy.ml gives off similar energy to r/the_Donald 2016ish era. It didn’t seem that serious, it was memes. And at first no one though r/the_Donald was a sub for MAGAts, they thought it was to dunk on Trump. Then it became serious Trump supporters and brigading and helping to influence the rise of fascism in a very tangible way.
I have no problem with genuine or misguided Marxists, in the same way that I have no problem with genuine or misguided Republicans. Because I believe like you, that it is possible to talk them down. When a community swarms and acts like a hive, like Lemmy.ml does, then it becomes really problematic. It uses group think to silence other ideas.
I’ve been around long enough to know not to fuck with propagandists that encourage others not to vote or otherwise usher in fascism.
Nazism and Tankies have echo chamber tendancies, bot infiltration tendencies, brigading, and most importantly are belief systems that are based on the destruction of society. Fascism is detrimental to society, and giving fascists a voice leads to the spread of fascism.
First off, are you asserting that tankies are fascist?
Secondly, what do you think about Marxist-Leninism relies on “the destruction of society”? Are you talking about revolutionary ideology in general?
When a community swarms and acts like a hive, like Lemmy.ml does, then it becomes really problematic. It uses group think to silence other ideas.
Well, they can’t silence you if you’re not posting in one of their communities, by definition, because they don’t have moderation capabilities outside of lemmy.ml. I have never seen a Beehaw post be “silenced” by tankies.
I’ve been around long enough to know not to fuck with propagandists that encourage others not to vote or otherwise usher in fascism.
Which is funny, because in my view the VBNMW propagandists are (and demonstrably have succeeded in) ushering in fascism by discouraging people from voting for anyone but the most milquetoast, do-nothing, two-steps-right-one-step-left candidates, and discouraging actual democracy where people make their own choices.
But you know, clearly it’s the tiny contingent of Lemmy tankies who ushered in Trump, not the mainstream media centrists like NYT with nation-wide reach, who shouted down and shamed anyone voting for Bernie instead of Biden, or anything…
First off, are you asserting that tankies are fascist?
Yup.
Secondly, what do you think about Marxist-Leninism relies on “the destruction of society”?
Fascism, authoritism, single party rule, etc. are all symptoms of a decayed society and something that tankies generally want.
Are you talking about revolutionary ideology in general?
Nope.
Well, they can’t silence you if you’re not posting in one of their communities, by definition, because they don’t have moderation capabilities outside of lemmy.ml. I have never seen a Beehaw post be “silenced” by tankies.
False. Re-read what you specifically are replying to with this statement.
See also: the global positive effects of Ukraine bombing the shit out of Putin’s data centers.
Which is funny, because in my view the VBNMW propagandists are
I love when tankies invent acronyms and words, it’s always so funny. I just picture them in Fedora’s with a smug look probably thinking, “aha, good sir, bet you’ve never heard that word before.” I’ll be honest, sometimes faking intellectualism can be an effective propaganda tool, it makes people believe you have authority on the subject. But if you see enough Lemmy.ml posts and start looking up the terms, you start to realize they’re all just made up.
the VBNMW propagandists are (and demonstrably have succeeded in) ushering in fascism by discouraging people from voting for anyone but the most milquetoast, do-nothing, two-steps-right-one-step-left candidates, and discouraging actual democracy where people make their own choices
So, aside from your obscure acronym (for those non-tankies out there it means Vote Blue No Matter Who) you actually raise a decent point. One that’s incredibly naiive, but nonetheless decent.
There is a way out of Trumpism, and Centrism - which is rotten, and one of those ways out is via voting. It is the most straight forward path out and it clearly benchmarks the size of a movement.
The general rule of thumb is that 3.5% of the population is needed for a successful revolution. Tankies are way off from this number. Hell, even if the lazy bastards could get off their asses and vote once a year, I doubt we’d see them make up 3.5% of the population, but look at how fucking lazy tankies are. They can’t even vote because theyre such losers. Imagine how many tankies the US would need to have to make up 3.5% of the population to do a revolution.
Tankies being lazy AF aside, “voting blue no matter who” is only half what people should be saying, the other half being, “vote like hell in the primaries” - point being, most states restrict ballot access to third parties, meaning it is easier for people who want to make* change to run as a Democrat, build a coalition and take over the party and then create sweeping reform.
Voting blue no matter who is like packing dirt into the roots of a riverside tree. You know a lot of that dirt will wash away, but what doesn’t will give the roots a place to grow stronger. It’s erosion control, while grass root campaigns grow to change the country for the better. Vote blue no matter who, so that you have time to build a movement big enough to make our communities better.
*please note, I said people who want to MAKE change, not people who want change
But you know, clearly it’s the tiny contingent of Lemmy tankies who ushered in Trump, not the mainstream media centrists like NYT with nation-wide reach, who shouted down and shamed anyone voting for Bernie instead of Biden, or anything…
Clearly, its not. You should work on your reading comprehension. And your critical thinking.
I specifically brought up r/the_Donald because it is a propaganda source that is echoed by Lemmy.ml. r/the_Donald was a really effective propaganda source that worked hand-in-hand with mainstream media centrists like NYT.
I like coming to beehaw because it’s not a constant firehouse of propaganda. Lemmy.ml being in the feed ruins the experience for me. And for new users who came to Beehaw for the break from constant corporatist propaganda, Tankie propaganda can be very effective.
The fediverse is full of people upset by the pedophile class. Why let tankie propaganda encourage people to not take action?
First off, are you asserting that tankies are fascist?
Yup.
Well, I don’t know what else to tell you other than “you’re wrong”. Fascism is an exclusively right-wing construct. It’s also not just some generic “suppressing dissent by force” that most centrists define it as, it has a very explicit set of features. If you’re not familiar with Umberto Eco’s “Ur-Fascism”, I’d encourage you to read it. Authoritarianism != Fascism.
Fascism, authoritism, single party rule, etc. are all symptoms of a decayed society and something that tankies generally want.
I agree about everything minus “fascism” (see above), which is why I disagree with Marxist-Leninism. But the assertion you previously made was that they wanted to destroy society, which is a far cry from listing symptoms of a “decayed” society which are ironically right in line with our current predicament, but certainly not one brought about by far-left political forces. Truly a brilliant example of the “people attributing to Socialism that which is actively happening under Capitalism” meme.
I love when tankies invent acronyms and words, it’s always so funny. I just picture them in Fedora’s with a smug look probably thinking, “aha, good sir, bet you’ve never heard that word before.” I’ll be honest, sometimes faking intellectualism can be an effective propaganda tool, it makes people believe you have authority on the subject.
Well considering I had written out the phrase in an earlier comment (in a comment thread you responded to), I didn’t think it was quite so unreasonable to think you might understand it, but I’m glad it gave you the chance to feel good by concocting some fantasy tankie strawman.
And honestly, I’m glad you pivoted to calling me a tankie. It really shows the dangers of the kind of echo chamber you want to construct, where everyone who disagrees with you is secretly the enemy in disguise. And unfortunately, y’all got your way, and the admins did de-federate from them, so I guess now instead of being called a secret capitalist by the tankies, I just have to look forward to being called a secret tankie by the likes of you.
Well, I don’t know what else to tell you other than “you’re wrong”. Fascism is an exclusively right-wing construct. It’s also not just some generic “suppressing dissent by force” that most centrists define it as, it has a very explicit set of features. If you’re not familiar with Umberto Eco’s “Ur-Fascism”, I’d encourage you to read it. Authoritarianism != Fascism.
I went and read Ur-Fascism. You should probably re-read it before making the argument you have here.
I agree about everything minus “fascism” (see above), which is why I disagree with Marxist-Leninism. But the assertion you previously made was that they wanted to destroy society, which is a far cry from listing symptoms of a “decayed” society which are ironically right in line with our current predicament, but certainly not one brought about by far-left political forces. Truly a brilliant example of the “people attributing to Socialism that which is actively happening under Capitalism” meme.
I never claimed Marxist-Leninism or tankies are the cause of the US’s issues. I claimed that fascism, authoritism, etc. are bad and campaigning for any such thing is destructive to society. Campaigning for the dismantling of democracy is bad. Tankies do that. Just because Trump isn’t bad, and tankies claim to be the opposite of Trump, doesn’t make tankies good. Tankies want people not to vote and they want authoritism. That is bad and destructive to society.
And honestly, I’m glad you pivoted to calling me a tankie. It really shows the dangers of the kind of echo chamber you want to construct, where everyone who disagrees with you is secretly the enemy in disguise. And unfortunately, y’all got your way, and the admins did de-federate from them, so I guess now instead of being called a secret capitalist by the tankies, I just have to look forward to being called a secret tankie by the likes of you.
How’s the expression go? “Those who dine with Nazis are Nazis.”
The paradox of tolerance applies here too. I don’t believe folks like you have a place in society, since you don’t want to live in a functioning society, rather you believe giving people who want authoritarian rule a voice - that is destructive to functioning society. Cry about it all you want.
I do not know is quoting my own comments intolerable or not, but… I do my best to fight against the propaganda.
I have written comments about this before, but the very simplified guide on, how to spot the russian and chinese propagandists on lemmy, is:
- Defending russian invasion in Ukraine, defending genocide of the chinese minorities, claiming Tianamen square massacre and the treatment of uighyr people are a hoax, being racist towards tibetans, doing the “I do not support [them], but…”
- Equating the USA = NATO, claiming everything any NATO country does is NATO as a whole doing it, blaming NATO for trying to attack Russia, saying NATO is trying to expand when border countries are joining voluntarily, blaming small border countries for aggression towards Russia
- Talking about “the West”, starting to speak about colonization times in unrelated discussions, trying to dismiss you by blaming you or you country for European colonization
- Trying to downplay and derail discussion on what Russia/China does, because the USA/“the West”/someone else has done bad things as well
- Writing longer and longer responses with multiple claims, often so you have to look into their sources/find reliable sources on the things by yourself, so you can argue against, in attempt to tire out out by making you answer each claim individually
- Using chinese state sponsored sources, supporting pro-russian/chinese politicians
- Blaming you for supporting genocide in Gaza, when you talk about some other genocide being bad, especially if it is related to Ukraine or China
- Dissing capitalism and saying China and/or Russia are true communists, marxists, etc., supporting the governments of China/Russia, either directly or hinting they are Better Options, arguing against calling China/Russia authoritarian regimes
You know, you found them, when your comments saying anything negative about Russia/China get downvoted, or someone starts arguing against you. Essentially there is no difference between the useful idiots and the bots and propagandists themselves. The people honestly identifying as tankies or defending tankies, are hanging in the metaphorical nazi bar without realizing it, and will not change their opinions, because they belive you are either bad, or brainwashed, so arguing does not get you anywhere.
The easiest way to deal with these, is to block the and move on. Arguing against will only give them more visibility, and make you tired and angry. If you feel pissed off, just explain these points as an answer, so others can consider with a different perspective, what they are reading, then block and move on.
Other additions to the list are:
- Calling Ukraine/you/your country nazis, digging through your comment history or doing internet searches, to find things how to link you/your country to nazis (or other bad things, like the colonization or supporting genocide)
- Trying to insult you/your country personally, being rude in attempt to get you enraged, to bait you to write rants they can respond to, and spout more of their propaganda
Honestly, I feel like its easy to slip through.
I’m fairly new to the fediverse, I started on hexbear, that was a mistake lol. Generally Lemmy.ml isn’t that bad, but its been the past month as we’ve gotten closer to elections that I’ve noticed their anti-voting shit pop up. They otherwise seemed on good faith maybe misguided but not too bad. But I’ve read they’re pretty cyclical. If it’s not called out during an election, they probably go back to normal.
you know I don’t see this stuff as much and I attribute it to blocking every meme community I come across.
Memes are my quick coke bumps to get me through the day
This could mean more relevant info in approved communities, otherwise lost in a widely blocked black hole.
Sorry, I’m not understanding
I’m sorry, too.
Mind rewording?
I’m not a fan of bubbles and this might pop .ml, releasing some future posts in the “wild”.
I have a general idea of what you’re saying, but its a bit too vague to understand your intent.
They’re saying that if we defederate, our good content will never be seen by them and we’d lose the chance of positive influence on them while allowing their cesspool to fester more.
Gotcha, I was reading almost the opposite ha
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Removed by mod
Gladly.
